[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

You guys aren't quite seeing the full picture. While Honda, Toyota, and Nissan do sell sedans, look at the development of their crossover models over the last 25 years and their popularity relative to sedans and related sales volume. CRV and RAV 4...Honda and Toyota wouldn't survive here without those. Honda Pilot? Toyota Highlander? Nissan Rogue. The Ford Explorer and Grand Cherokee have been unibody "blobs" since 2010 for Ford and the GC has always been since the 90's. Runaway success with those two, and the Explorer was front wheel drive since then until 2020. It's not just GM, it's not all because of CAFE...utilitarian, non-sedan vehicles are extremely popular.

There is a lot of truth in here. Sedan volume was dropping long before the CAFE curves accelerated the process. For many years Accord and Camry were at the top of the best selling vehicles list. Now CR-V and RAV4 lead those brands in sales, even though Accord and Camry are arguably better cars than they ever were. Same is true of Hyundai and Kia. Sonata and Optima (K5) were top sellers in each brand until consumers started to prefer the Santa Fe and the Sportage. So, GM and Ford and Stellantis dropping sedans was not THE reason for sedans declining in volume. Factor? Yes. Cause? No. That would still be the growing popularity of sport utility vehicles and crossover utilities. That gave automakers the escape lane to fall into as they exited sedan segments. And blame the government for the categorization and separation of the CAFE fleets, but recognize that those fleets as well as the shadow area / footprint methodology was negotiated between EPA and automakers, not dictated. If it were dictated it would have been much, much worse.

[docwra]

Originally Posted by 90503

A point I was trying to make earlier. Thank you. It's sort of disingenuous to blame the sedan segment decline of GM and Ford on customer preferences and demands when Honda, Toyota, Nissan all do very well selling sedans.

Customers see this and want to spend their sedan money on makers who believe in the products they make and do not treat models in their own lineup like unwanted step-children like gm has with Chevy sedans. Why would someone be brand loyal to that scenario?

As a European entirely this. JP/EU cars through the 80's and 90's were much better made, more reliable and dynamically better than US stuff and we also got efficiency into the bargain, its only recently that they have started running them close IMO.

The truck thing is difficult to understand from a European viewpoint, for a start why someone chooses a commercial platform as a daily driver - Ive just checked and only 0.9% of vehicles sales in the EU are pickups.
Could GM and Ford be focusing there as its a captive market that the EU/JP are never going to target?

[102SS]

Originally Posted by docwra

As a European entirely this. JP/EU cars through the 80's and 90's were much better made, more reliable and dynamically better than US stuff and we also got efficiency into the bargain, its only recently that they have started running them close IMO.

The truck thing is difficult to understand from a European viewpoint, for a start why someone chooses a commercial platform as a daily driver - Ive just checked and only 0.9% of vehicles sales in the EU are pickups.
Could GM and Ford be focusing there as its a captive market that the EU/JP are never going to target?

A truck will last 20 years or more where cars or small suv's are disposable.

Plus you can haul and tow and you ride higher so you can see over all the other vehicles.

In Canada and the USA there is a saying "A man with a truck is never broke"

[102SS]

BTW they are marketing that new Ford EVPU as being able to charge another electric vehicle.

If you you really want to impress me get it to charge itself without plugging it in

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by docwra

As a European entirely this. JP/EU cars through the 80's and 90's were much better made, more reliable and dynamically better than US stuff and we also got efficiency into the bargain, its only recently that they have started running them close IMO.

The truck thing is difficult to understand from a European viewpoint, for a start why someone chooses a commercial platform as a daily driver - Ive just checked and only 0.9% of vehicles sales in the EU are pickups.
Could GM and Ford be focusing there as its a captive market that the EU/JP are never going to target?

YES.

You should also know that driving a US pickup is a lot different than driving an EU pickup. The interior appointments and ride quality of US pickups are closer to large sedan than to EU pickups.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 102SS

BTW they are marketing that new Ford EVPU as being able to charge another electric vehicle.

If you you really want to impress me get it to charge itself without plugging it in

You’ve just described regenerative braking.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You’ve just described regenerative braking.

The fun/performance implications of this are also huge. I'm sure you understand this, but I'll describe it for others.

It's like having an ICE revved to the perfect point to produce maximum braking horsepower from 0% to 100% whenever you need it; all you have to do is lift your foot off the throttle. The higher you lift, the more braking effect, except it isn't using the service brakes at all. In regenerative braking, the EV motors into generators and the resistance is variable with how much energy you allow to be recovered.

Coming down a mountain pass you can recover several percent of your SOC in a large EV battery. Can't do that with ICE...at the very most you can cut fuel to the engine, but you can't recover any meaningful energy.

But nobody cares about eco stuff. Regen braking for performance is stupid grin-inducing fun. You can come into curves faster and "brake" later (using only regen) and lose no time getting back on the throttle. And when you do, it's with maximum torque depending on your foot position. Until you really push an EV hard you don't realize how much time and effort goes into making an ICE produce power in the range you really want it. There is skill and art in that, sure, but when that piece is eliminated, I think EV actually becomes a more connected driving experience. All your power and braking is at the wheels. The bulk of the car's weight is under you, very low, and evenly distributed. Guys...this is serious fun, and as an automotive enthusiast, I can say you're missing out if you're not giving EV's a fair shake.

The engine sound is absent, ok, but the car is still making plenty of noise. You start to tune into the sounds your tires make under different acceleration and braking conditions - they're giving you so much information that you don't hear when an ICE is running. And to hear the suspension, and what's going on outside around you is actually pretty cool in its own way.